End of FEMINISM???

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 16:12

Why you can't stand if feminism is not dead?

safriz [Member]
http://www.conspiror.blog.co.uk
2006-11-03 @ 16:06

feminism has gone in the wrong hands,and women are bening fooled by them.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 16:11

Its harsh and illogical saf. Only fool can get fooled.

So you don't have objection about feminism?
You only have doubt about feminists?

safriz [Member]
http://www.conspiror.blog.co.uk
2006-11-03 @ 16:12

i object both

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 16:14

But you said it went in wrong hands.
That means if it was in right hands it was ok.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 16:31

Maybe Saf means women's rights is okay but feminism isn't. They ain't the same things.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 16:39

May be. But he don't look like champion of women's rights either.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 16:46

Why do you say that?

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 16:51

Because he call himself maleist.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 16:30

Feminism is reactionary, its anti men and anti family. It's unrealistic. That's why it doesn't work.

Who wants to live in lesbian communes with a bunch of soap dodgers? Not me. Modern women want eqaul rights not feminism.

But I don't think it's dead though there are plenty of old feminist out there trying to tell us what to do and blaming everything on the patricarchy. :roll:

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 16:35

Do Modern women have equal rights?

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 16:44

No, we have more rights than men and that's not good we ought to have equal rights. If I was going to campaign for equal rights I'd be campaigning for equal rights for men. When we had a debate at my school about feminism no girl wanted to defend it.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 16:55

Sure girls and women are shy to defend feminism. But it also because of male dominance and patiarchal values nurtured among them.

"No, we have more rights than men ??
Can you point out any?

safriz [Member]
http://www.conspiror.blog.co.uk
2006-11-03 @ 16:40

spot on amief..i totally agree with u

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 16:45

Thanks Saf

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 16:42

Every ism is 'anti' something. :roll:

safriz [Member]
http://www.conspiror.blog.co.uk
2006-11-03 @ 16:45

yes but no other 'ism' is as illusive and anti social,as feminism.
they claim,that they are working for equal rights,no probs with that.
but instead mostly they use their energies to justify,nudity,anti-familyism,labianism,and want the world to accept and hail to it.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 17:00

It can be because the reality in respect to gender is that illusive.
To give you one example, if a man will go scantily dressed or nude, no woman will attack him, but if woman does it, she can be raped and people say that she asked for it.
If there is such stark contrast in reality in this regard, do you don't see feminism has role to play?

safriz [Member]
http://www.conspiror.blog.co.uk
2006-11-03 @ 17:09

Thats the way,this world was built,men have supermacy over women in certain things,and women have supermacy over men in certain things.We have different gender roles.Men can't produce babies,and can't breast feed them.No body can change this.There are other things about the social structure which were working nice,and genders were satisfied with it.But some women,to fulfil their own desires,started to stirr up,women's sentiments,and there is the result.
Women used to stay home and take care of children,and men used to go out and work.Now women are taking care of children and working for money.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 17:17

So now women are doing both.:P
Taking care of children and working for money.
What role is left for men?
Donating sperms?

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 16:45

"Modern women want eqaul rights not feminism."
That means they don't have equal rights, right?

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 16:48

No it doesn't. But we don't have equal rights we have more rights than men.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 16:56

What are those?

safriz [Member]
http://www.conspiror.blog.co.uk
2006-11-03 @ 16:50

no feminist has yet come up with a well written agenda,or a definition of equal rights.
equal rights exisr,when genders are satisfied on the things they are getting.feminism continuously injects dis-satisfaction among women,so there will be no end...other than the end of social structure all together,,

safriz [Member]
http://www.conspiror.blog.co.uk
2006-11-03 @ 16:55

you know i won't shut up on this subject,but right now i have to go for an important appointmtnt..will be back,will read all the comments,and will reply all. mwahahaha

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 17:05

Remember I am waiting for you.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 17:03

Social structures have evolved through social process and can be only sustain if they accommodate demands of changing times. Its end has nothing to do with any ism.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 19:24

Feminism isn't "anti-men" in the slightest - that's just something that feminism has been tagged with over the years and unfortunately, it's stuck.

And if people still choose to see it that way, then things will never change :roll:

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 19:32

I agree with you largely. But every ism is bound to have some anti.

deleted user [Visitor]
http://stephiblog.wordpress.com
2006-11-03 @ 22:07

Really? So feminism isn't an ideology that developed in the 1960s based on the canards that gender roles and gender identity are social constructs? And it's not anti-marriage and anti family? It doesn't demand that women need liberating from a patriarchal society? And doesn't ideologically support lesbian separatism?

Feminism as an ideological movement is anti men and anti women. It's a form of fascism.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 22:12

I don't know it's roots, but I have to agree that you describe what I know as contemporary feminism quite well.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 23:01

Any ism is anti something.

safriz [Member]
http://www.conspiror.blog.co.uk
2006-11-03 @ 17:05

ism give direction to the evolution of social structure.Feminism is giving it all the wrong directions

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 17:07

ism is product of social evolution saf. Do you think evolutionary process can be misguided?

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 17:47

Sadly saf you have an appointment and where is Ammie?

What happened?

Several questions remained unanswered...

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 18:32

What questions do you want answered vox?

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 18:36

Like having more rights than men and many other.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 18:16

I'm against feminism, men and women are not totally equal, there are fundermantal differencies. Women can control men in many ways when it comes to sex, men can dominate women and over power them but it is just impossible for a woman to rape a man. Excludign the violence of rape a man is still expected to do the running to pursuade a woman to sleep with him, to give him permission to have her. There is always pressure on the man to perform when the woman wants. This is not just confined to sex but all the rituals around it, making the first move, dating etc. Even with on line dating women expect men to contact them rather than them seekign out and contacting the men on the whole yet the environment is totally equal.

What is the male equivelent of a gynacologist?

Why is it assumed that a man will not mind an appendix scar but the procedure is different for a woman to avoid an unsightly scar if possible?

Why do man have to ask women to marry?

Roles are differnt.

There were unjust inequalities in the past where for no good reason oprotunities were denied to women but these are dwindling as attidudes have changed over time through feminism and campaigns for equal rights. The problem is that the corrresponding attidudes to men have not changed creating an imbalance the other way in certain areas.

A man wanting to be a nursery teacher of child minder is treated with more suspicion than a woman.

Male nurses are assumed to be gay, along with air line stewards.

A man is thought as being incapable of being sexually harrased by a women, or being weak for it.

Man are not seen as victims of domsetic voilence and when revealed as such are not treated with the sympathy that women get.

If a woman hits a man and he hits back he is seen as the agressor.

Feminism has had its day. It no longer seams to represent the views of an opressed majority of women but is seen as more of a men haters club that is too extreme for most women who generally seam to have a reasonably fair ride though life as opposed to the dictactorial prescribed path without choices of yester year.

The problem with feminisists it that a woman who chooses not to have a career and become a wife, mother and house wife at home keeping house and raising the children is seen as in need of rescue or a trator to woman kind. The reality is that now the woman has the right and ability to choose to be the house wife, or have a career, or both. Choice now exists where it did not. They have beoce a thought police who are not liked by the population as a whole male or female.

Well thats how I see it but as with all of us in this debate I am biased by my geneder (male).

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 18:30

Thanks for vey elaborate, intelligent and nice response. I have certain differences with it, though I also have some agreements. I will respond to you shortly.
By the way I am man by gender.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 18:35

You heap far too much praise on me, what you really mean is I go on a bit, well thats true!

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 18:31

I agree, except I don't think feminism ever did any good. Don't think being male makes you biased, I'm female and I agree with ya.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 18:34

Where were you Amie. Saf also left.
Ok now we can begin again.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 18:34

Thanks, but I have to say I think in history some thing acted to change womens rights and if it was not feminism what was it? Surley the historic change to give more rigths to women was a good thing?

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 18:39

This is the point of our agreement virgin.
Absolutely right.

One should need to acknowledge role o feminism in making things right and raising isuues.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 18:42

Yes, but I feel resentment for the position that feminism now takes, that of being "more equal than me" (now theres an oxymoron) The major in equalities are addressed in our society today so there job is largely done.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 18:49

I agree with this partially.
Though major has been addressed as you suggest minor remains. Some are more subtle and sophisticated inequalities have remained. Some are also taken newer forms.
I agree with your resentment against "more equal" position. Is it taken by feminists?
May be bent stick policy I supose if anyone is taking that position.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 19:03

BTW, that was a typo, should have been men not me.

Whats the bent stick policy?

If all things in life were equal then what?

There are always differencies but the inequalities left are of less magnitude than the nosie of individual difference so they cannot be addressed with out similar adverse reactions.

I think we are left with an extreme now that is largley irrelevant and Germain Greer, well is she a good advert or just a media sterotype?

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 19:12

Bent stick is not good position.

I think any feminist can answer your question. But sadly there is no one around.

I agree with you regarding equality a bit.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 18:50

Trade unions and the woman's rights movement not feminism. My cousin wrote about it on her blog they nicked other people's glory.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 19:00

Tade unions surely played great part.
Women's rights movement minus feminism?

For what rights they championed for?
Who nicked other people's glory?

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 19:06

feminism nicked the glory of the pre-feminist woman groups. Woman's suffrage weren't feminism.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 19:25

Suffrage movement. Mnay questions were even not appeared when that movement achieved its goal.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 19:10

Trade unions also fought feminism in some areas, fearing a mans job would be taken and given to a woman. Don't forget that trade unions were wholly male at one time as they only represented the worker against the employer and most women did not work.

Sorry that is wrong, because the indusrial revolution did bring jobs to women and trade unionism was bourne out of the industrial revolution. But further down the line fewer women worked and the work places were perdominatly male and the unions representing the workers were therefore male representing the views of their mainly male membership (just avoided a double meaning there by adding ship)

I think that womens right movements became feminism as the label changed.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 19:27

Absolutely right. I completely agree with you virgin.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 19:26

"What is the male equivelent of a gynacologist?"

Um....men don't need internal examinations :roll:

//"Why is it assumed that a man will not mind an appendix scar but the procedure is different for a woman to avoid an unsightly scar if possible?

Why do man have to ask women to marry?"//

And neither of these statements are even NEARLY true.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 19:45

Men do have health problems with genitalia but these are not covered by a single specialism whereas women have specialist in this area of their health. I know women have more complex issues here than mem and the need for more shall we say medical intervention, but men can and do get thrush for instance along with cancers, cysts, growths and all amnner of other complications and do not get the same comprehensive treatement as women do.

I am certain that many more men ask women to marry them than the other way round!

Do men get asked if they want the appendix scar lower to be bikin line?

please elaborate if I am wrong.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 23:10

Is there any complicatedness in genital problems of men compared to problems of women due to their reproductive physical processes.

You can also search answer of your concern regarding compulsion on men on taking initiative in sex and marriage in the difference in the sexual physical consequences in men and women after sex.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 19:49

To add to it I would say that even if it is true to some extent it suggest that women are not still feel certain pressures and have to suppres their feelings as patriarchal values ask.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 19:55

Yes but so do men

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 20:03

Yes thats why patriarchal values are now problematic to both men and women.
Feminism not only sought to liberate women but also men in that sense.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 18:49

It's a matter of how far the pendulum swings.

I agree with Amie in the respect that in certain things women do have far more rights them men. But there is still the 'old carrot' of equal pay for both. This I think will go on being debated for time imimorial.

If you take the calm after the storm raised by GG, then yes, it is post feminism. But I don't feel that I am treated with any less respect by either sex, so I do'nt see a problem.

I think virgin blog has raised many issues that need sorting out before anyone can say that there are equal rights for all. Then there will be no need for 'ism's' of any description.

Until that day, are any of us less guilty of an 'ism'?

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 18:57

Surely all 'isms' have their own defects.

Why there should be debate on 'equal pay' for ages?

What will happen if 'equal pay' is not given to different section between male employees.

I am repeatedly asking Amie about more rights than men. Which are those? Are there really any?

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 19:18

Yes and I think Virginblog has raised a few.
Domestic violence is one. How many men report that the female beats them up? Not many because it is seem as non-macho. When they do, I would imagine that many of them get ridiculed by both sexes.

In a divorce situatution, in a majority of cases the male leaves the marital home to the wife and children, as it is mostly assumed that she will have custody of the offspring. Men have to fight to get visiting rights let alone custody. I know that divorce happens for a variety of reasons, and sometimes it is for the children that the choice of who they stay with, is set.
But not in all cases.
If a male wishes to be a nurse, he is assumed to be gay, but that does not occur if he is a doctor.

Equal pay is, as I said, a huge debate, and this has so many arguments. Equal pay for equal jobs is something that has not just gender barriers, but age barriers as well.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 19:54

I agree with you Sussie, but then most domestic violence is perpertrated by men.

Not that I condone it, it is a burden that men must bear. By this I mean that all men are tarred with the same brush to some extent.

I am not violent but I am agressive at times. The agression is partly a male thing, partly who I am but I can control myself to the extent I am not violent. Violence is seen as been a trait of most males, especially the larger and more agressive ones.

But being sensitve as a man, which I like to think I am, is seen as not being a male attributeand is seen as a sign of weakness and homosexuality.

There can never be true equality.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 20:07

There can be total political, economic and social equality.

But I agree there cannot be physical, sexual and psychological equality.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 21:19

I disagree, because the physical, sexual and psychological inequalities get in the way and prevent the others.

Power is at the root of polictics and economics which in turn dicates or influence social attidudes and policies.

Power is wrapped up in physical strength, physchology and sexual power. Women have the upper hand in phyco-sexual power, men have the upper hand in physical power, and psycology and the different thinking patterns between men and women, partly influenced by hormones, mix it all up.

The story of Adam and Eve is partly a metaphore for this I think.

We are all programmed towards sex and sexual desires and these dictate the patterns of society.

This is getting very deep!

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 21:26

"Power is at the root of polictics and economics"

"Power is wrapped up in physical strength, physchology and sexual power."

So you mean to say 'physico-psychological power''sexual power' is root of real the power in society, polity and economy?

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 21:35

It is the driving force behind power and most of our social structures.

But human society is a "higher order" society and we have empathy and emotions as well which works to temper teh above driving forces.

The root of the existence of all species in the animal kingdom is the surrvival of the species which is tied up in procreation which is where strength, the ability to provide for the young (money in our world) and sex come in to drive us.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 22:46

With all those creation and procreation roots, I just want to know whether you think that 'psycho sexual power' is root of real power in politics and economy my friend.

[Visitor]

2006-11-04 @ 14:39

The short answer is yes, but the full answer is very complicated.

Power is actually given to leaders by the people and they give it to different people in different circumstances. Churchill was a good war leader but lost the election after the war because he was not the sort of leader the people wanted in peace time.

Our own circumstances dictated our opinion, many people gravitate towards leaders that mimick childhood authority figures, such as our father, an influential teacher, or our mother depending oon our own up bringing.

We look for similar qualities in leadership figures in later life.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-04 @ 17:44

One can explore psycho-sexual drives of leaders, their behaviour, decision making.

But can we trace the roots of power in polity, society and economy to this hidden area?

deleted user [Visitor]
http://stephiblog.wordpress.com
2006-11-03 @ 22:13

"most domestic violence is perpertrated by men."

More men are prosecuted for domestic violence but no one has ever proved that most domestic violence is perpetrated by men, its just how are police are trained to respond to calls of domestic violence.

[Visitor]

2006-11-03 @ 22:21

I think you are playing devils advocate here. What you say is true but it is a long stretch of the imagination to suggest that my statement is false.

We can all beleive that domestice violence towards men is under reported but not to the extent that it is more prevelent than domestic violence against women.

voxpopuli [Member]
2006-11-03 @ 22:44

Disagree with you bit Steph here.
I say bit because I agree that the State and Police handle cases of violence and especially domestic violence badly.

However, saying that men do not perpetrate domestic violence would be stretching it bit too far. I don't deny that even woman can be violent at times, but there is difference between violence perpetrated by man and woman.
Women may do more psychological violence and men tend to commit physical assault. The physical attack and damage gets more weightage while dealing with domestic violence issue and that makes men perpetrators.

[Visitor]

2006-11-04 @ 14:42

I'd tend to agree with you Vox, but I think it is a big leap from words to hitting.